Well. . . I figured this would happen. Another poll for everyone.

[Xzothi 54]

@Norway174 One thing you should note though for a few of the developers it seems to be there first full game.  Some came from the mod. As another came from mortal online. At least this is from my understanding that has been said. I could be wrong.

[Norway174 269]

@Xzothi That's a good note. Thank you!
However, my point was about brining in more developers. Not about the current developers experience.  

[Xzothi 54]

2 minutes ago, Norway174 said:

@Xzothi That's a good note. Thank you!
However, my point was about brining in more developers. Not about the current developers experience.  

 

I know @Norway174 I just wanted to mention that factor.  Since it can he helpful to know where they are and where they are going. The team also likely will stay small for the simple reason they don't want to spend all there money quickly and have some money they can use for people who want to refund.  Which is some information I seem to of gotten from what the developers them self have said.(At least when it comes to the and part.)

Edited April 28, 2018 by Xzothi

[HAWK 23]

@Norway174 Man I gotta give you props to type this big thing. lol. First things first:

36 minutes ago, Norway174 said:

But so is spreading misinformation and bullshit.

So how exactly am I spreading "misinformation and bullshit"? Just wondering. I mean at the end of the day it's just my opinion. It's not a newsletter or something it's simply my opinion. Like it or not you can at least respect it, that's not much to ask for and everyone in this community respect each other.

36 minutes ago, Norway174 said:

Are you seriously suggesting you know how to develop Identity better than the developers?

I'm sorry if somehow you had a hard time reading my message, but NO WHERE DID I SAY THAT. lol. I literally said they had a lot of time and money. That's seriously a plain fact that you can't argue.

36 minutes ago, Norway174 said:

That you can accurately predict how long each task is gonna take, and magically hire experienced developers for a short-term job, with little pay, who also don't need any time to be thought the inner workings of the game?

So wow. Where to start? Let start with: Any developer can predict how long a task can take. He or she should know from prior experience how long it takes to get a task done. For example, an animator knows how long it takes himself/herself to get one animation done.  Due to unexpected errors which has happened a lot lately, it would make sense to add a few days or a week to that time frame to prepare for it. For the rest of the stuff, short term job? What are you even talking about? lol. Little pay? Still what are you talking about? Also the last part still . . . what are you talking about?

36 minutes ago, Norway174 said:

At the time of writing this post, they've raised 1,160,841$ USD

Yeah they got even more money. lol. I honestly don't know where you're going with that.

 

36 minutes ago, Norway174 said:

Bringing in more people isn't as easy as 1, 2, 3... And they have a lot of expenses too. Who do you think pays for this forum you're on right on?
Not only the hosting of the forum, but also the forum software costs money. And that's a monthly expense.

Dude seriously. Websites do cost a good amount of money, but they don't hundreds of thousands of dollars.

 

36 minutes ago, Norway174 said:

And then there's the software they have to pay for, to make this game. The office space they have to rent, their own salaries, and a whole lot of other speculative expenses.

Software can cost up to $10,000, and even more, but some of which doesn't need to be bought or has cheaper alternatives. Yep office space does cost money. I would hope they get paid. I'm sure there is.

 

36 minutes ago, Norway174 said:

In conclusion, you really have no idea what you're talking about.

In conclusion, the only thing I have no idea about is some of the things you said. So some more explaining can help.

36 minutes ago, Norway174 said:

Their reasoning for delays are totally valid. It's not just some "excuse" as you seem it to be.

A survey I did expresses that a good majority of the community (at least from those who voted which was a lot) believe the game devs are not telling the truth with what they're doing and the majority expects them to at least give a lot more detailed explanations for the delays. So I'm not the only one that thinks this and you saying so makes your whole argument invalid.

36 minutes ago, Norway174 said:

They've done thousands of tasks before the Dev Tracker.

Which literally and clearly shows just how many tasks that had to be done that the game devs would of never been able to complete on original release date and the first delay.

 

Alright. That was interesting. Great discussion! I liked it. Let's just keep it more healthy and friendly. lol. I explained in many threads and comments on the forums that I really want this game to succeed, but I believe the way they are handling these delays are just terrible (a large amount of the community thinks so too). Have a great day! I hope this helps explain everything.

Edited April 28, 2018 by HAWK
fixing

[HAWK 23]

6 minutes ago, Norway174 said:

@Xzothi That's a good note. Thank you!
However, my point was about brining in more developers. Not about the current developers experience.  

 

One of the big reasons they need to bring more developers is because of their lack of experience. Good job @Xzothi for reminding me of that and adding to the discussion.

[Xzothi 54]

@HAWK or anyone else interested  here is a source for the average pay for a game developer https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/game-developer-salary-SRCH_KO0,14.htm

You can use that site as well to find other average salaries. 

 

Forgot to add:/edit in reason why I added this is because I have seen to many salary numbers people seem to pull out of the blue.  

Edited April 28, 2018 by Xzothi
forgot to add.

[HAWK 23]

@Xzothi Cool man. I know what game devs make already and yes I researched that too. lol. But, it will definitely help others who want to know more about this.

[Norway174 269]

12 minutes ago, HAWK said:

So how exactly am I spreading "misinformation and bullshit"? Just wondering. I mean at the end of the day it's just my opinion. It's not a newsletter or something it's simply my opinion. Like it or not you can at least respect it, that's not much to ask for and everyone in this community respect each other.

On 4/23/2018 at 11:48 PM, HAWK said:

Town Square module gets delayed AGAIN with no good reasons why.

How about that for starters? Their reasons are totally valid.

And sure, while it may be your opinion. When you're putting it online for everyone to read. You're also putting it out there for criticism.
With the example above, you could say those reasons are your personal opinion. But you know, in the end, there are people bound to not realize that, and that's when you start spreading misinformation and, in the end, only hurting the game more than helping it.

26 minutes ago, HAWK said:

1 hour ago, Norway174 said:

Are you seriously suggesting you know how to develop Identity better than the developers?

I'm sorry if somehow you had a hard time reading my message, but NO WHERE DID I SAY THAT. lol. I literally said they had a lot of time and money. That's seriously a plain fact that you can't argue.

Let's look at what you actually said:

11 hours ago, HAWK said:

But, these devs had a lot of time and a lot of money to get this Module created by now. Therefore, they must of REALLY overestimated their capability of getting things done since this is the 2nd delay for the module since the original release date. For a small team with such a big budget there's no reason they couldn't expand themselves even more (hiring more people that is). By the last month/month and a half  they got $100,000 more donations that could hire two or one very experienced dev.

Here, you state, "They must pf REALLY overestimated their capability of getting things done.". In other words, you're presenting something you don't know about, as if you do.

"For a small team with such a big budget there's no reason they couldn't expand themselves even more (hiring more people that is).", and here, you assume you know their budget. Sure, we know how much they've raises so far. That's nowhere near to knowing their budget, as in all the income, and expenses.

"By the last month/month and a half  they got $100,000 more donations that could hire two or one very experienced dev.", and here you're stating they could just hire one or two 'experienced' developer.

You may not have said "I'm suggesting I know better.", but you certainly implied it.

37 minutes ago, HAWK said:

1 hour ago, Norway174 said:

That you can accurately predict how long each task is gonna take, and magically hire experienced developers for a short-term job, with little pay, who also don't need any time to be thought the inner workings of the game?

So wow. Where to start? Let start with: Any developer can predict how long a task can take. He or she should know from prior experience how long it takes to get a task done. For example, an animator knows how long it takes himself/herself to get one animation done.  Due to unexpected errors which has happened a lot lately, it would make sense to add a few days or a week to that time frame to prepare for it. For the rest of the stuff, short term job? What are you even talking about? lol. Little pay? Still what are you talking about? Also the last part still . . . what are you talking about?

"A task done.", yes. Totally agree. Makes sense. If they know from experience.

But now we're talking about thousands of tasks, over a long period of time since even before they announced the first release date. For such a small team, with as @Xzothi pointed out, with varying degree of experiences.

And I'm assuming a short term job, with little pay. You have to think, and plan long-term. You can't spend all your money on bringing on more expensive developers right away.

I'm by no means an accountant, or good with money on my personal use. But even I see the long-term implications.

43 minutes ago, HAWK said:

1 hour ago, Norway174 said:

At the time of writing this post, they've raised 1,160,841$ USD

Yeah they got even more money. lol. I honestly don't know where you're going with that.

Relativity speaking, it's not that much. Again, you have to think long term. A couple of thousands each month, won't get you that long.

Let's say, for sake of argument. That money stopped coming in, right now. And, their monthly expense was 8,000$ USD, for example. Their current amount would only last for about 24 months, 2 years.

51 minutes ago, HAWK said:

1 hour ago, Norway174 said:

Bringing in more people isn't as easy as 1, 2, 3... And they have a lot of expenses too. Who do you think pays for this forum you're on right on?
Not only the hosting of the forum, but also the forum software costs money. And that's a monthly expense.

Dude seriously. Websites do cost a good amount of money, but they don't hundreds of thousands of dollars.

1 hour ago, Norway174 said:

And then there's the software they have to pay for, to make this game. The office space they have to rent, their own salaries, and a whole lot of other speculative expenses.

Software can cost up to $10,000, and even more, but some of which doesn't need to be bought or has cheaper alternatives. Yep office space does cost money. I would hope they get paid. I'm sure there is.

See my previous point. The website was just an example. And one that I had looked into personally, because I was interested in the forum software.

52 minutes ago, HAWK said:

1 hour ago, Norway174 said:

In conclusion, you really have no idea what you're talking about.

In conclusion, the only thing I have no idea about is some of the things you said. So some more explaining can help.

I hope this clears some things up for you?  

53 minutes ago, HAWK said:

1 hour ago, Norway174 said:

Their reasoning for delays are totally valid. It's not just some "excuse" as you seem it to be.

A survey I did expresses that a good majority of the community (at least from those who voted which was a lot) believe the game devs are not telling the truth with what they're doing and the majority expects them to at least give a lot more detailed explanations for the delays. So I'm not the only one that thinks this and you saying so makes your whole argument invalid.

Ever played FarCry 4? It's like that. It's a cult that's starting to form on the forum, because people don't know any better. And because of threads like these.

Sure, there's a lot the devs could do to get more information out there. But there's also a lot the people could do to just research a little on their own, and find more information. And not just the misinformation and slander that's spreading in the General topic. Which is what people are seeing.

56 minutes ago, HAWK said:

1 hour ago, Norway174 said:

They've done thousands of tasks before the Dev Tracker.

Which literally and clearly shows just how many tasks that had to be done that the game devs would of never been able to complete on original release date and the first delay.

You pretty much countered this point yourself earlier:

57 minutes ago, HAWK said:

Any developer can predict how long a task can take. He or she should know from prior experience how long it takes to get a task done. For example, an animator knows how long it takes himself/herself to get one animation done.

They had a list of items that needed to be done. They thought they could get it in within the time frame. They didn't on both account, and are now using a different system. Keeping us in the loop of what is going on from a day to day basis.

1 hour ago, HAWK said:

but I believe the way they are handling these delays are just terrible (a large amount of the community thinks so too).

Then by all means, come up with a better idea. I for one, think the Dev Tracker is a better idea than an arbitrary release date.

[HAWK 23]

14 minutes ago, Norway174 said:

How about that for starters? Their reasons are totally valid.

And sure, while it may be your opinion. When you're putting it online for everyone to read. You're also putting it out there for criticism.
With the example above, you could say those reasons are your personal opinion. But you know, in the end, there are people bound to not realize that, and that's when you start spreading misinformation and, in the end, only hurting the game more than helping it.

Let's look at what you actually said:

Here, you state, "They must pf REALLY overestimated their capability of getting things done.". In other words, you're presenting something you don't know about, as if you do.

"For a small team with such a big budget there's no reason they couldn't expand themselves even more (hiring more people that is).", and here, you assume you know their budget. Sure, we know how much they've raises so far. That's nowhere near to knowing their budget, as in all the income, and expenses.

"By the last month/month and a half  they got $100,000 more donations that could hire two or one very experienced dev.", and here you're stating they could just hire one or two 'experienced' developer.

You may not have said "I'm suggesting I know better.", but you certainly implied it.

"A task done.", yes. Totally agree. Makes sense. If they know from experience.

But now we're talking about thousands of tasks, over a long period of time since even before they announced the first release date. For such a small team, with as @Xzothi pointed out, with varying degree of experiences.

And I'm assuming a short term job, with little pay. You have to think, and plan long-term. You can't spend all your money on bringing on more expensive developers right away.

I'm by no means an accountant, or good with money on my personal use. But even I see the long-term implications.

Relativity speaking, it's not that much. Again, you have to think long term. A couple of thousands each month, won't get you that long.

Let's say, for sake of argument. That money stopped coming in, right now. And, their monthly expense was 8,000$ USD, for example. Their current amount would only last for about 24 months, 2 years.

See my previous point. The website was just an example. And one that I had looked into personally, because I was interested in the forum software.

I hope this clears some things up for you?  

Ever played FarCry 4? It's like that. It's a cult that's starting to form on the forum, because people don't know any better. And because of threads like these.

Sure, there's a lot the devs could do to get more information out there. But there's also a lot the people could do to just research a little on their own, and find more information. And not just the misinformation and slander that's spreading in the General topic. Which is what people are seeing.

You pretty much countered this point yourself earlier:

They had a list of items that needed to be done. They thought they could get it in within the time frame. They didn't on both account, and are now using a different system. Keeping us in the loop of what is going on from a day to day basis.

Then by all means, come up with a better idea. I for one, think the Dev Tracker is a better idea than an arbitrary release date.

 

@Norway174 Great responses. A lot of them I answered in my previous response to yours. You may have skipped over it or something, but I definitely answered some of the points you brought up here.

 

15 minutes ago, Norway174 said:

How about that for starters? Their reasons are totally valid.

Yo, I seriously said the words "Town Square module gets delayed AGAIN with no good reasons why." I never said their reasons aren't valid. If they can't  finish the module in time then they have to delay it. duh. What I said is that there's no good reasons why the module was delayed. Before, you ask "Didn't you just say the reasons are valid?" Yes I did. But, the reasoning of "Well, we just couldn't get it done in time" is not a good excuse when we all been hearing it for several times now. We want details. What exactly took so long? What delayed them so long. No where in the dev blog does it cite that and that's what we want.

22 minutes ago, Norway174 said:

But now we're talking about thousands of tasks, over a long period of time since even before they announced the first release date. For such a small team, with as @Xzothi pointed out, with varying degree of experiences.

They had seriously 2-3 years to work on this. lol. Sure a good amount of that time it was just several of them working on it. But, that does not take away from the fact that the game devs had cited on the the Town Square Module that it was 86% done. Which they stopped updating a year ago (another bad thing they should have never done). That means they had 14% less to get done with  a bigger team and bigger budget. There's absolutely no reason for two delays.

 

25 minutes ago, Norway174 said:

And I'm assuming a short term job, with little pay. You have to think, and plan long-term. You can't spend all your money on bringing on more expensive developers right away.

Sure, but game devs on a usual pay don't make that much money. In the U.S. they make roughly around 40-55 thousand dollars (which is always changing). Therefore, the devs can indeed hire more people without putting themselves in a bunch of debt. That's why I cited that they just made 100k in the past month/two and could of easily put it towards getting more developers.

 

28 minutes ago, Norway174 said:

See my previous point. The website was just an example. And one that I had looked into personally, because I was interested in the forum software.

I did so myself not too long ago and we both know that this isn't that expensive.

 

29 minutes ago, Norway174 said:

Let's say, for sake of argument. That money stopped coming in, right now. And, their monthly expense was 8,000$ USD, for example. Their current amount would only last for about 24 months, 2 years.

This math makes no sense at all. lol. If their monthly cost was $8,000 a month they would have a TON of money leftover.

 

30 minutes ago, Norway174 said:

Sure, there's a lot the devs could do to get more information out there. But there's also a lot the people could do to just research a little on their own, and find more information. And not just the misinformation and slander that's spreading in the General topic. Which is what people are seeing.

I've done days upon days of research. lol. I know very well what I'm talking about though I'm only a human could of made a mistake in writing all of this.

 

31 minutes ago, Norway174 said:

You pretty much countered this point yourself earlier:

How so? I cited clearly that if they devs planned ahead and knew their limits a delay wouldn't be as likely to happen. They would of given themselves months to keep developing to assure that it's the best for us.

 

33 minutes ago, Norway174 said:

Then by all means, come up with a better idea. I for one, think the Dev Tracker is a better idea than an arbitrary release date.

It's a fantastic idea that should of existed months ago. Right when they first delayed the module (after they already delayed the gameplay video). If they had this they could of very well saw themselves not be ready within a month due to their limits.

34 minutes ago, Norway174 said:

And sure, while it may be your opinion. When you're putting it online for everyone to read. You're also putting it out there for criticism.
With the example above, you could say those reasons are your personal opinion. But you know, in the end, there are people bound to not realize that, and that's when you start spreading misinformation and, in the end, only hurting the game more than helping it.

Two things. It's the internet. You can't control the internet and you can't control those who misinterpret something. Second, I'm not spreading anything that can't be backed up with facts. Could the game devs realize that they couldn't get the module ready for the second delay? Yes, by easily knowing their limits and keep track of their progress. They could added an extra week or two in case they run into any problems instead of creating a whole new delay that causes people to get sad and mad. Could the developers handle the way the delays are given better? Yes, they could give us more details in their developer blogs about the delays or simply keep us updated on the forum.

Great discussion! Let's keep it positive!

[Xzothi 54]

@HAWK You can't claim facts and also claim it is a opinion they are not the same thing. They are not in the same ball park. Once you start claiming something is a fact then you are admitting it is no longer a opinion it is a fact. If someone corrects you with facts it would mean you are incorrect.